So I e-mailed Uriah earlier this week and, as it turned out, he'd written something down wrong. So we met again today and spent most of the time in random chitchat. He vented some grievances about airlines and people who don't wash their hands in the bathroom, and so forth. I forget most of the things we talked about. I had to keep one of my cats away from the frog a few times, I sure recall that. I explained to Uriah that I wouldn't be available on the first day of the upcoming convention because I have to take the GRE, which I had to reschedule because of my federal jury duty in August, and he told me some stories of his own experiences in county jury duty. But we established that he'll be picking me up at about 5 AM on August 1st and 7 AM on August 2nd. I may end up spending a whole lot of time around Jehovah's Witnesses that weekend...
He also tipped me off to some eBay sales, including a Watchtower Library disk from 2005 for just $10 + SH, which I just ordered. (In the meantime, he also told me a clever tale from a seller's standpoint. He noticed that for some reason a lot of stuff by some guy named "Ed Hardy" is selling hot right now, so on an ad he has out, he abbreviated "education" to "ed." at the end of a sentence and made sure to start the next sentence with "Hardy". There's a fine line between brilliance and deceit, hahaha.)
Anyway, eventually we managed to get in a very minimal conversation about theological stuff. I ran through the arguments from my outline, which I gave him to take with him before he left. But he really caught me off-guard when we started to discuss Jesus' resurrection, and he said he believes (or at least is open to the idea) that Jesus was raised physically from the dead! True, he followed it up by saying that that Jesus subsequently became a spirit-creature. But Uriah is open to the idea that the body in which Christ appeared to the disciples was numerically identical to the one in which he died. When I brought up Russell's famed quote about the body of Jesus being dissolved into gas or preserved as a memorial in heaven, he said that that was also a possibility, and that he really doesn't know the details of the resurrection and the appearances. Hardly what I expected! (He still didn't fluster me as much as I flustered him a number of meetings ago...)
So I handed him my outline and he said he'd do some research, and I also said that I wanted to hear more of his personal thoughts on the resurrection of Christ. Then, after a bit more small-talk, we parted ways. I'm going to be at a college Bible study up at campus next Saturday, so the next time I see him will be when he picks me up for the convention that's sure to produce some looooooong reports.
Saturday, July 18, 2009
Saturday, July 11, 2009
A Meeting Delayed
Seems like the twenty-second meeting is being postponed--I got stood up! I'll send Uriah an e-mail later saying I missed seeing him today, or something like that. I think I'll say that next Saturday will work out well for me. After all, it has been three weeks, so he could've forgotten--although he writes these things down in a calendar.... (Alternatively, perhaps I did enough theological damage last time to make him need an even longer break, haha.)
Anyway, this morning as I remembered that I'd forgotten to do most of the research I'd planned, I prepared a sort of outline for myself of the arguments I'd been using and planned to bring up. I even decided to use the New World Translation as my primary Bible for it, so that most of my arguments could be made from the NWT alone; and I also decided to omit some of the more popular texts used, or the ones to which I'm familiar with very common JW replies. Since I don't have anything to actually report this time, I figure I might as well transcribe it for fun andprofit edification:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three theoretical options for resurrection: (1) glorified physical resurrection bodies (continuity); (2) substance-change resurrection (continuity); and (3) replacement resurrection as spirit-bodies (discontinuity).
On Physical Resurrection for All
For Jehovah's Witnesses, the anointed will experience [3] whereas the "great crowd" will experience [1]. Moreover, most statements about resurrection in the Pauline epistles are taken to refer to the resurrection of the anointed, rather than the great crowd, as Paul's audience was, it is presumed, composed entirely of the anointed class.
I. Romans 8:11
Anyway, this morning as I remembered that I'd forgotten to do most of the research I'd planned, I prepared a sort of outline for myself of the arguments I'd been using and planned to bring up. I even decided to use the New World Translation as my primary Bible for it, so that most of my arguments could be made from the NWT alone; and I also decided to omit some of the more popular texts used, or the ones to which I'm familiar with very common JW replies. Since I don't have anything to actually report this time, I figure I might as well transcribe it for fun and
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three theoretical options for resurrection: (1) glorified physical resurrection bodies (continuity); (2) substance-change resurrection (continuity); and (3) replacement resurrection as spirit-bodies (discontinuity).
On Physical Resurrection for All
For Jehovah's Witnesses, the anointed will experience [3] whereas the "great crowd" will experience [1]. Moreover, most statements about resurrection in the Pauline epistles are taken to refer to the resurrection of the anointed, rather than the great crowd, as Paul's audience was, it is presumed, composed entirely of the anointed class.
I. Romans 8:11
- "life to YOUR mortal bodies" (Romans 8:11, NWT) is either resurrection or it is not - but it clearly is
- this is either a literal use of the concept of resurrection, or it is metaphorical (a la Ephesians 2:4-6) - but it clearly exceeds metaphor in specificity
- thus, mortal bodies will literally receive life in the resurrection
- this is compatible with [1] or [2], but incompatible with [3]
- there are two options: (P) "that which is corruptible" has reference to the physical body, and "incorruption" is a state of non-physical existence; or (Q) this is not the case, and their referents are otherwise
- assuming [P], then "the physical body must put on a state of non-physical existence", which is [2] rather than [3], and so incompatible with JW teaching
- counter: this text really means that the person in the physical body must adopt godly principles so that later the person, but not the physical body, can be re-created in a state of non-physical existence
- reply: the text never says anything of the sort; it clearly says that that which is corruptible must put on incorruption
- assuming [Q], then the corruption/incorruption dichotomy is not equivalent to the material/immaterial dichotomy, which supports [1]
- thus, no option here supports [3], least of all the JW reading of the text
III. 1 Corinthians 15:42
- assuming that "it" refers to the physical body, then the text means that the physical body (even of the anointed) is raised in incorruption - and this would be [1]
- assuming that "it" refers to the 'life-force', the text is false because the life-force is never sown in burial; thus this assumption must be false
- "it" cannot change referent in the midst of this and the subsequent verses; Paul is a better communicator than that!
- hence, this text clearly supports [1]
IV. Philippians 3:21
- either (P) Christ has a glorified physical body; or (Q) Christ has a non-physical spirit-body
assuming [Q], then "our humiliated bod[ies]" are refashioned into spirit-bodies, which would be option [2] - assuming [P], then "our humiliated bod[ies]" are glorified in their physicality, which would be option [1]
- counter A: perhaps the "humiliated body" is not the physical body of each anointed believer, but the corporate body of Christ, that is, the anointed class as a whole
reply A: this is contrary to established JW interpretation of the passage (e.g., Reasoning from the Scriptures, p. 336), in which the physical bodies are in view - counter B: perhaps the anointed alive when the millennium begins shall have [2] instead of [3], such that Paul can indeed predicate [2] of the anointed
- reply B1: but this would only be 5% of the anointed class at best, and Paul was a skilled enough communicator to convey his message better. He could have said, e.g., "our humiliated body shall be exchanged for one like unto his glorious body", which would have covered the whole anointed class and not just a miniscule fraction of them
- reply B2: it remains to be established that (counter B) posits accepted JW teaching at all regarding the anointed who remain when Christ comes
- thus no option compatible with JW teaching is compatible with this verse, JW use notwithstanding
V. Romans 8:23
- New World Translation says "redemption from our bodies", but the Greek has "απολυτρωσιν του σωματος ημων" - that is, "redemption of our body", not "from"
New World Translation has here changed Scripture to escape the implication
if our bodies - that is, those of the anointed - are redeemed, this must entail [1] or [2]; this passage disconfirms [3]
On the Physical Resurrection of Christ
- see (IV) above
II. 1 Timothy 2:15
- this verse refers to Jesus in the present tense as "a man"
- but if Jesus was raised as a non-human spirit-being, he isn't actually human in the present tense
- and it must mean really "a man" and not merely in appearance as a man, because of the God-Jesus-man mediation described in the passage
- thus, Jesus is currently a man
- and it follows that Jesus was not raised as a spirit-being, as JW teaching holds
III. John 2:19-22
- Jesus said that in three days, he would raise the temple up that had been broken down
- John makes very explicit that Jesus meant his body
- so after three days, Jesus raised up the body that was broken down
- but this is not compatible with a spirit-resurrection, in which the old temple remains fallen and a new one is built out of different material
- consequently, Jesus was raised physically from the dead in the body in which he died, contrary to JW teaching
Saturday, June 20, 2009
JW Study Meeting #21
Our next meeting was today, and so Sarah was around for it as well. The reason we skipped a week in there is that Uriah had to cancel because a Bethel speaker was coming to the Kingdom Hall. I couldn't make it to that, unfortunately.
The first thing we did was a bit of small talk, and after I mentioned that my mother and her friend from North Ireland are in New York City today, Uriah mentioned the one time when he was eight years old and in the scouts, and in New York City their leader accidentally took a wrong turn and led their troop into a topless bar. I imagine that required quite a bit of explaining to parents! I mentioned how a couple times when I was in NYC, I often walked past Bethel, and he said that he thinks they might eventually actually move their HQ increasingly out of the city to places like Patterson and some other town starting with "W", the precise name of which I forget.
We then got to talking about the convention, which will be from the last day in July to the first two days in August, and he'll be glad to give me a ride if I don't mind being there an hour or so after it ends each day--which is fine with me, because come on, where better for me to hang out than after hours at a JW convention? Also, I mentioned how I'd heard that one of the books released will be a commentary on Acts, and we both agree that that'd be sweet.
Next Uriah mentioned his research into the Sodom and Gomorrah bit, and his conclusion was that some people from Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected, but most will not. He gave me an article from the 15 August 1982 Watchtower, so I'll have to read through it, look up some of the conflicting opinions, and ask him to look into them.We then got to Romans 8:11 and had some fun discussion in circles (which was a pattern that was to mark the remainder of the day). I got him to agree that "make YOUR mortal bodies alive" (Rom 8:11, NWT) has reference to the resurrection, and he agrees that Paul is addressing the anointed. Uriah pointed me to Ephesians 2:4-6, and I then explained how resurrection was historically used both literally and metaphorically--in the Old Testament as a metaphor for Israel's return from exile, and in the New Testament as a metaphor for the current transformation in life that takes place upon acceptance of Christ. I pointed out that Paul talks here in the past tense about our being raised up, which clearly must be metaphorical, and he agreed; so then we returned to Romans 8:11, which I pointed out appears to refer to literal resurrection, not metaphorical. Ultimately, Uriah isn't sure why Paul said "mortal bodies" instead of "mortal lives".
Uriah then asked me to turn to 1 Corinthians 15, esp vv. 35-40, 50-53. (We oddly had no discussion of the "flesh and blood" thing, which is surprising considering how prominent that argument is in JW literature.) So first he asked me my opinion about corruptibility, which he interestingly identifies with physicality--not a mere association, but actually identification. (Note to self: Ask Uriah whether Satan is incorruptible.) We got into a discussion of everlasting life and immortality, and here I sort of fumbled; I opted to defer the question of whether the sinless angels have immortality, and I'll have to look more into that.
We returned to 1 Corinthians 15:53, a verse that was to dominate our discussion for quite a while. I asked him what he thinks "this which is corruptible" means, and he answered the physical body; I asked him what "incorruption" is, and he answered that it's a state of existence as a spirit-being; and I asked him what putting on was, and he pointed me to Paul's description of spiritual armor. So then I asked whether this verse was about literal resurrection, and he said yes; I then asked what it means for the physical body to put on a state of existence as a spirit-being, and here we went for a loooong spirally ride. He kept wanting to explain the passage in terms of 'putting on' God's principles of right living; I pointed out that this would be an apt description of conversion or sanctification, but not of resurrection. He said at several points that a physical body actually cannot put on incorruption, and when asked about the verse in question, where Paul says flatly the opposite, he continually attempted to default to the godly principles explanation, which finally culminated in a statement that the physical body (that is, the person as a physical body) must accept godly principles so that one day the person--not the body itself--can be renewed in the resurrection by putting on incorruption. (But, it will be noted, in this explanation the physical body never itself puts on incorruption, contra Paul--and I will return to this with Uriah sometime in the future to hammer this point home more.)
We then discussed some earlier verses (vv. 43ff.-ish), and Uriah attempted to point me to the metaphor of sowing and reaping. I quickly asked him what "it" is, and he considered for a moment and said the body--specifically, the physical body. So then I read through verse 43 with substitution of "physical body" for "it", and he said that it wasn't the body, it was the "life-force". I then asked if the sowing was burial, and he said yes. I pointed out that we bury bodies, not life-forces; and I believe somewhere in here he attempted to say that "it" changes referent within the verse, which clearly doesn't work. I may be imagining that, though. At any rate, he sorta gave up on this one and then asked me some questions about physical resurrection, like how God can raise up the same body after thousands of years. Thankfully I'd recently glanced at an old Christian document--where somebody used the analogy of iron filings hidden in sand and drawn out by a powerful magnet, so I used that analogy to explain it. I initially thought I might've just read the quote in Robert L. Wilken's The Spirit of Early Christian Thought, but after re-checking my sources, it turns out that I was referencing Abdisho bar Brika's Marganitha 5.7:
The first thing we did was a bit of small talk, and after I mentioned that my mother and her friend from North Ireland are in New York City today, Uriah mentioned the one time when he was eight years old and in the scouts, and in New York City their leader accidentally took a wrong turn and led their troop into a topless bar. I imagine that required quite a bit of explaining to parents! I mentioned how a couple times when I was in NYC, I often walked past Bethel, and he said that he thinks they might eventually actually move their HQ increasingly out of the city to places like Patterson and some other town starting with "W", the precise name of which I forget.
We then got to talking about the convention, which will be from the last day in July to the first two days in August, and he'll be glad to give me a ride if I don't mind being there an hour or so after it ends each day--which is fine with me, because come on, where better for me to hang out than after hours at a JW convention? Also, I mentioned how I'd heard that one of the books released will be a commentary on Acts, and we both agree that that'd be sweet.
Next Uriah mentioned his research into the Sodom and Gomorrah bit, and his conclusion was that some people from Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected, but most will not. He gave me an article from the 15 August 1982 Watchtower, so I'll have to read through it, look up some of the conflicting opinions, and ask him to look into them.We then got to Romans 8:11 and had some fun discussion in circles (which was a pattern that was to mark the remainder of the day). I got him to agree that "make YOUR mortal bodies alive" (Rom 8:11, NWT) has reference to the resurrection, and he agrees that Paul is addressing the anointed. Uriah pointed me to Ephesians 2:4-6, and I then explained how resurrection was historically used both literally and metaphorically--in the Old Testament as a metaphor for Israel's return from exile, and in the New Testament as a metaphor for the current transformation in life that takes place upon acceptance of Christ. I pointed out that Paul talks here in the past tense about our being raised up, which clearly must be metaphorical, and he agreed; so then we returned to Romans 8:11, which I pointed out appears to refer to literal resurrection, not metaphorical. Ultimately, Uriah isn't sure why Paul said "mortal bodies" instead of "mortal lives".
Uriah then asked me to turn to 1 Corinthians 15, esp vv. 35-40, 50-53. (We oddly had no discussion of the "flesh and blood" thing, which is surprising considering how prominent that argument is in JW literature.) So first he asked me my opinion about corruptibility, which he interestingly identifies with physicality--not a mere association, but actually identification. (Note to self: Ask Uriah whether Satan is incorruptible.) We got into a discussion of everlasting life and immortality, and here I sort of fumbled; I opted to defer the question of whether the sinless angels have immortality, and I'll have to look more into that.
We returned to 1 Corinthians 15:53, a verse that was to dominate our discussion for quite a while. I asked him what he thinks "this which is corruptible" means, and he answered the physical body; I asked him what "incorruption" is, and he answered that it's a state of existence as a spirit-being; and I asked him what putting on was, and he pointed me to Paul's description of spiritual armor. So then I asked whether this verse was about literal resurrection, and he said yes; I then asked what it means for the physical body to put on a state of existence as a spirit-being, and here we went for a loooong spirally ride. He kept wanting to explain the passage in terms of 'putting on' God's principles of right living; I pointed out that this would be an apt description of conversion or sanctification, but not of resurrection. He said at several points that a physical body actually cannot put on incorruption, and when asked about the verse in question, where Paul says flatly the opposite, he continually attempted to default to the godly principles explanation, which finally culminated in a statement that the physical body (that is, the person as a physical body) must accept godly principles so that one day the person--not the body itself--can be renewed in the resurrection by putting on incorruption. (But, it will be noted, in this explanation the physical body never itself puts on incorruption, contra Paul--and I will return to this with Uriah sometime in the future to hammer this point home more.)
We then discussed some earlier verses (vv. 43ff.-ish), and Uriah attempted to point me to the metaphor of sowing and reaping. I quickly asked him what "it" is, and he considered for a moment and said the body--specifically, the physical body. So then I read through verse 43 with substitution of "physical body" for "it", and he said that it wasn't the body, it was the "life-force". I then asked if the sowing was burial, and he said yes. I pointed out that we bury bodies, not life-forces; and I believe somewhere in here he attempted to say that "it" changes referent within the verse, which clearly doesn't work. I may be imagining that, though. At any rate, he sorta gave up on this one and then asked me some questions about physical resurrection, like how God can raise up the same body after thousands of years. Thankfully I'd recently glanced at an old Christian document--where somebody used the analogy of iron filings hidden in sand and drawn out by a powerful magnet, so I used that analogy to explain it. I initially thought I might've just read the quote in Robert L. Wilken's The Spirit of Early Christian Thought, but after re-checking my sources, it turns out that I was referencing Abdisho bar Brika's Marganitha 5.7:
But, now, should any doubtingly inquire how bodies can rise again which have been destroyed, and which have mingled with the dust, which have been eaten of wild beasts, or consumed by fire, or drowned in water? we reply : Should a pieceThe conversation never really got controversial again from there. I think I may have thrown some serious wrenches in his exegesis, but I'm not really sure whether he realizes it or not. So next time (which will be July 11th, since he isn't free on the 4th and I'll be lounging on the Atlantic City beach a week from today) we agreed to get into Christ's resurrection and the issue of the anointed and unanointed, and eventually I'd like to start circling back to some of these topics and pick up some pieces. Should be interesting.
of iron be broken into impalpable powder, and be mixed with dust and sand, the hidden power of a magnet will at once separate the atoms from the dust and sand, and from whatever other heterogeneous bodies with which they may have been mixed; and if such virtue resides in the magnet, how much more possible is it for the power of the Creator, in His wisdom, to separate, bring together, and remodel the bodies of men at the resurrection!
Saturday, June 6, 2009
JW Study Meeting #20
Today was fuuuuuun. I had mistakenly thought that we were supposed to meet at 1:30, but it was 1:00, so Uriah caught me by surprise while I was typing up this post at TheologyWeb. We chatted for a little bit--he brought me a couple of pamphlet-style publications, as well as the latest Watchtower and Awake!. (Regarding the back page of the latest Awake!, by the way, please watch this interesting YouTube video.)
It didn't take too long before we dove into the remainder of the chapter (paragraphs 12-25) from What Does the Bible Really Teach?. The first portion of it, everything until paragraph 20, was thoroughly unobjectionable, in my view. So we had no controversy until we reached that. Paragraph 20 asserts that some individuals will not be resurrected at all at the time of judgement:
During my brief rundown in delineating what paragraphs 21-22 were about, I explained a bit of my own view as well, and thoroughly managed to take Uriah by surprise. He'd never met anyone who firmly believes in the resurrection of the body and the new heavens and new earth while also not believing in the resurrection of the anointed class to a heavenly existence. You should've seen how perplexed he was. He had so much stuff running through his head after that, that he kept stumbling over the words for the next few paragraphs, and at one point he just randomly stopped in mid-sentence to think for about a minute or so....Aaaaaanyway, once we got to discussion time, I started out with the issue of whether all people will be resurrected. So first Uriah explained the three-part division of righteous, unrighteous (both of these are resurrected), and blotted out ([Soup Nazi]"No resurrection for you!"[/Soup Nazi]); I was surprised to hear Uriah state in his explanation that the third category wasn't really in the Bible.
So then we began discussing who might be in the third category, and Uriah stated that he really wasn't sure. He thinks Adam is probable, and he leans towards putting Judas and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah there as well. So then I asked him about Sodom and Gomorrah with reference to Matthew 11:24, and he thought for a moment and said he really didn't know, so he'd have to look it up. More specifically, we established that he tentatively thinks that, when judgment day rolls around, both the people of Sodom and the unrepentant hearers of Jesus' condemnation will be non-existent, and so he isn't sure how it can be better for one non-existent group than for another non-existent group in a time when neither of them exists. I also asked why Jesus spoke so universally of the resurrection in John 5:28, and he didn't really have an answer for that either.
I did get some clarification of some sort on one question I had regarding the anointed. For JWs, or at least for Uriah, only the anointed are sealed with holy spirit, but all believers can receive holy spirit, be guided by holy spirit, even described as indwelt by holy spirit. (I'll have to check my collection of JW literature to see if they contradict that.) This took a bit of sting out of an argument I constructed last night, but not too much:
That was basically as far as we got today. Next Saturday we plan to push forward in the discussion, and I already took puh-lenty of notes dealing with the whole 'spirit-resurrection' thing.
It didn't take too long before we dove into the remainder of the chapter (paragraphs 12-25) from What Does the Bible Really Teach?. The first portion of it, everything until paragraph 20, was thoroughly unobjectionable, in my view. So we had no controversy until we reached that. Paragraph 20 asserts that some individuals will not be resurrected at all at the time of judgement:
Does this mean that ever human who ever lived will be resurrected? No. The Bible says that some of the dead are in "Gehenna." (Luke 12:5) [...] So Gehenna is a fitting symbol of everlasting destruction. Although Jesus will have a role in judging the living and the dead, Jehovah is the final Judge. (Acts 10:42) He will never resurrect those whom he judges to be wicked and unwilling to change. (What Does the Bible Really Teach?, p. 73, par. 20)We'll get back to that after a while, but see this post for more thorough coverage of the issue. The next couple of paragraphs (21-22) set forth the JW belief in a heavenly resurrection as spirit-beings for some, and the two paragraphs after that (23-24) dealt with the anointed.
During my brief rundown in delineating what paragraphs 21-22 were about, I explained a bit of my own view as well, and thoroughly managed to take Uriah by surprise. He'd never met anyone who firmly believes in the resurrection of the body and the new heavens and new earth while also not believing in the resurrection of the anointed class to a heavenly existence. You should've seen how perplexed he was. He had so much stuff running through his head after that, that he kept stumbling over the words for the next few paragraphs, and at one point he just randomly stopped in mid-sentence to think for about a minute or so....Aaaaaanyway, once we got to discussion time, I started out with the issue of whether all people will be resurrected. So first Uriah explained the three-part division of righteous, unrighteous (both of these are resurrected), and blotted out ([Soup Nazi]"No resurrection for you!"[/Soup Nazi]); I was surprised to hear Uriah state in his explanation that the third category wasn't really in the Bible.
So then we began discussing who might be in the third category, and Uriah stated that he really wasn't sure. He thinks Adam is probable, and he leans towards putting Judas and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah there as well. So then I asked him about Sodom and Gomorrah with reference to Matthew 11:24, and he thought for a moment and said he really didn't know, so he'd have to look it up. More specifically, we established that he tentatively thinks that, when judgment day rolls around, both the people of Sodom and the unrepentant hearers of Jesus' condemnation will be non-existent, and so he isn't sure how it can be better for one non-existent group than for another non-existent group in a time when neither of them exists. I also asked why Jesus spoke so universally of the resurrection in John 5:28, and he didn't really have an answer for that either.
I did get some clarification of some sort on one question I had regarding the anointed. For JWs, or at least for Uriah, only the anointed are sealed with holy spirit, but all believers can receive holy spirit, be guided by holy spirit, even described as indwelt by holy spirit. (I'll have to check my collection of JW literature to see if they contradict that.) This took a bit of sting out of an argument I constructed last night, but not too much:
- (1) Everyone indwelt by the Spirit will have life given to their mortal bodies. [cf. Romans 8:11]
- (2) the anointed are indwelt by the Spirit [premise]
- (3) the anointed do not experience resurrection of their bodies [premise]
- ergo, one of (1)-(3) must be incorrect
That was basically as far as we got today. Next Saturday we plan to push forward in the discussion, and I already took puh-lenty of notes dealing with the whole 'spirit-resurrection' thing.
Saturday, May 30, 2009
JW Study Meeting #19
Today it was just myself and Uriah. After a little bit of smalltalk and petting my cat Moses, we chatted a bit about some JW publications I'd like. He's gonna bring me the copy of the one anti-spiritism publication that he'd promised a while back (I think maybe it's Spirits of the Dead--Can They Help You or Harm You? Do They Really Exist?), and another one he mentioned today (I think it's Will There Ever Be a World Without War?). When we finally got to business, we worked through the first eleven paragraphs of Chapter 7 in What Does the Bible Really Teach?, which deals with having hope after a loved one has died. Nothing was especially controversial here--he thoroughly enjoyed most of my answers--except for one paragraph (#11, I think) which attempted to use the case of Lazarus to teach that consciousness ceases absolutely at death. Since we already hashed through some of the afterlife questions in a previous session and will no doubt return to them after we get further along, I pointed past that disagreement to the point that the Bible focuses very little on the 'afterlife' and much more on resurrection.
I then managed to go on a rant about the Word of Faith movement for quite a while. I think it started when I was talking about visions of heaven and hell in intertestamental Jewish literature, and somehow shifted into the 'visions' of Word of Faith teachers... and from there I ran through some of the more eccentric teachings of the movement, including many that Uriah had never heard. So we spent some good time exploring the insanity of a third party. He agrees that they're pretty far removed from reality.
We plan to finish out the chapter next Saturday, and hopefully then discuss anything disagreeable. If I'm not mistaken, I think the chapter ends with some references to Jesus' resurrection as a spirit being, so I should probably spend some time this week reviewing the central passages in that little controversy, maybe re-read some sections from N. T. Wright's excellent The Resurrection of the Son of God too.
Also, Uriah found out that there are two scheduled publication releases for the upcoming convention, and that they're supposed to be different from previous releases somehow. At least, that's what he's heard. I'm looking forward to it. This year may see a release of a JW study companion to Acts of the Apostles. That'd be pretty interesting if so, and I wouldn't mind getting a copy and finishing it faster than Uriah can.
I then managed to go on a rant about the Word of Faith movement for quite a while. I think it started when I was talking about visions of heaven and hell in intertestamental Jewish literature, and somehow shifted into the 'visions' of Word of Faith teachers... and from there I ran through some of the more eccentric teachings of the movement, including many that Uriah had never heard. So we spent some good time exploring the insanity of a third party. He agrees that they're pretty far removed from reality.
We plan to finish out the chapter next Saturday, and hopefully then discuss anything disagreeable. If I'm not mistaken, I think the chapter ends with some references to Jesus' resurrection as a spirit being, so I should probably spend some time this week reviewing the central passages in that little controversy, maybe re-read some sections from N. T. Wright's excellent The Resurrection of the Son of God too.
Also, Uriah found out that there are two scheduled publication releases for the upcoming convention, and that they're supposed to be different from previous releases somehow. At least, that's what he's heard. I'm looking forward to it. This year may see a release of a JW study companion to Acts of the Apostles. That'd be pretty interesting if so, and I wouldn't mind getting a copy and finishing it faster than Uriah can.
Saturday, May 23, 2009
JW Study Meeting #18
Today's encounter was relatively uneventful. My girlfriend's staying at my place this week, and Uriah and Shem came over at the designated time (1:00 PM). We spent a bit of time just catching up, chatting about the economy, etc. I mentioned that I'd finished both volumes of Isaiah's Prophecy: Light for All Mankind, and Uriah said that he enjoyed Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! more. I said that sometime this summer I plan to read Revelation--Its Grand Climax at Hand!, because I'm going to be reading a lot of 'end times' stuff. We couldn't remember where on earth we'd left off in the study book, so we resolved to start at the beginning of Chapter 7. Of course, we never actually got around to it today; we'll be getting down to that next time. (It's perhaps for the best; I'm still feeling rather woozy, tired, and drugged up from getting my wisdom teeth yanked, so I probably wasn't up for it today anyway.)
Today we mostly discussed how their conventions work. The annual convention is coming up at the end of July, and I'm hoping to attend. Now that should be interesting! (Shem said I should be sure to bring a notepad; Uriah said the first time he went to convention, he filled an entire 180-page notebook with notes.) Anyway, the conventions are typically three-day affairs and are relatively localized. About 20 congregations go to each convention, with the same convention centers being used almost continuously throughout the summer for that purpose. So there are usually around 5,000 people at a convention. Uriah mentioned that back in the day, even before he became a JW, the conventions were more outdoors, five times as large, and three times as long. People passing out from heat stroke eventually persuaded them to change things a bit. Uriah isn't sure why the conventions used to be so long; he did say that the first day used to be devoted to having all the JWs go door-to-door preaching, which I imagine could overwhelm a city quite easily. Shem also remembered that there used to be bigger breaks for lunch. In ye days of olde, the convention was 9 AM to 9 PM each day, but these days it's typically out at 4 PM. The convention typically consists of maybe 90% talks, including some by members of the anointed class. There's basically always a book release, too (and although they generally bring twice as many books as there are attendees, they still manage to run out early each time). There are also baptisms (maybe about 100 or so per convention), and the third day typically involves a drama of some sort. The actors and other people involved in setting up the convention generally then attend another convention so that they get to see what they missed. Uriah also mentioned how there are usually a few protesters outside, and also people trying to sell JW literature back to the JWs, which never actually works because it makes no sense. The first time they held the convention in the current place (Sovereign Center in Reading, PA), the police were there to keep things under control--typical crowd control stuff--but eventually realized that JWs wouldn't be a problem, so now they just show up at 3:30 to direct traffic. The JWs typically receive nice letters from the town mayor and the local parking authority after the convention; the conventions also generally do the town's economy good.
We also discussed my reflections on the Memorial Service, which I enjoyed. Uriah's Quote of the Day: "We didn't sacrifice any babies because we ran out." He also mentioned a time during a meeting when one of his friends had been giving a talk about Abraham and Isaac, and about how difficult it would be to be put in Abraham's position with respect to the sacrifice; the friend muttered under his breath, "unless the kid's a teenager".
So that's more or less how things went today. It was good catching up and learning more about the conventions, but I look forward to getting back into the book next time.
Today we mostly discussed how their conventions work. The annual convention is coming up at the end of July, and I'm hoping to attend. Now that should be interesting! (Shem said I should be sure to bring a notepad; Uriah said the first time he went to convention, he filled an entire 180-page notebook with notes.) Anyway, the conventions are typically three-day affairs and are relatively localized. About 20 congregations go to each convention, with the same convention centers being used almost continuously throughout the summer for that purpose. So there are usually around 5,000 people at a convention. Uriah mentioned that back in the day, even before he became a JW, the conventions were more outdoors, five times as large, and three times as long. People passing out from heat stroke eventually persuaded them to change things a bit. Uriah isn't sure why the conventions used to be so long; he did say that the first day used to be devoted to having all the JWs go door-to-door preaching, which I imagine could overwhelm a city quite easily. Shem also remembered that there used to be bigger breaks for lunch. In ye days of olde, the convention was 9 AM to 9 PM each day, but these days it's typically out at 4 PM. The convention typically consists of maybe 90% talks, including some by members of the anointed class. There's basically always a book release, too (and although they generally bring twice as many books as there are attendees, they still manage to run out early each time). There are also baptisms (maybe about 100 or so per convention), and the third day typically involves a drama of some sort. The actors and other people involved in setting up the convention generally then attend another convention so that they get to see what they missed. Uriah also mentioned how there are usually a few protesters outside, and also people trying to sell JW literature back to the JWs, which never actually works because it makes no sense. The first time they held the convention in the current place (Sovereign Center in Reading, PA), the police were there to keep things under control--typical crowd control stuff--but eventually realized that JWs wouldn't be a problem, so now they just show up at 3:30 to direct traffic. The JWs typically receive nice letters from the town mayor and the local parking authority after the convention; the conventions also generally do the town's economy good.
We also discussed my reflections on the Memorial Service, which I enjoyed. Uriah's Quote of the Day: "We didn't sacrifice any babies because we ran out." He also mentioned a time during a meeting when one of his friends had been giving a talk about Abraham and Isaac, and about how difficult it would be to be put in Abraham's position with respect to the sacrifice; the friend muttered under his breath, "unless the kid's a teenager".
So that's more or less how things went today. It was good catching up and learning more about the conventions, but I look forward to getting back into the book next time.
Friday, April 10, 2009
Revenge of the Kingdom Hall - A Lord's Evening Meal Memorial Service
My friend Daniel couldn't make it--something came up with his internship--and so my mother and I went there. Took about 20 minutes to get there from here, and we arrived just a few minutes before the start of everything. It looked very full at first, but then I realized that it was because barely anyone was seated yet; everybody was milling around socializing in the aisles and behind the seats.
One of the first people we ran into was Mephibosheth, whom I hadn't seen in ages. After some brief chit-chat, I spied Shem about halfway across the room, but before we could get there, we ran into a few more JWs who wanted to welcome us, and then Uriah caught up. After a minute or so of conversation, in which he promised to forward me an video clip he'd mentioned receiving from the JW whom we'd just met.
Anyway, the two of us sat by the wall, about 2/3 of the way back. A woman in the row in front of us (let's call her "Atarah"; she'll resurface in the narrative) passed us a large copy of Sing Praises to Jehovah, while a woman in our own row passed over a New World Translation; I'd forgotten mine at home because I hadn't thought I'd need it.
The service began with, after an introductory prayer, a song: #87 in the songbook, "The Lord's Evening Meal" (lyrics here). Then began the beginning of the "talk" (which is the term preferred by JWs to "sermon" or "message"), delivered by a Witness whom I'll call "Gideon". It was, at least at first, rather unobjectionable. Gideon began by hearkening back to the original Passover, and between this and the language in the song, one couldn't possibly forget how Quartodeciman the JWs are. The talk proceeded to raise the question of why Christ had to die, and thus went back to the story of Adam and the Fall in order to set the stage for Christ's death. Eventually, however, Gideon got to the issue of the 144,000. It was interesting to see the rather loose pastiche of Scripture texts that got connected to 'show' the distinction between the elite class--Gideon remarked that one could expect them to be extremely devout followers of Christ, and said that they knew who they were based on the testimony of holy spirit--and the rest of us there. Thus, he explained that the new covenant is solely for those 144,000 who have the "heavenly hope", although Jehovah likewise loves all those who have the "earthly hope". The emblems, however, are exclusively for the anointed class. (And I'm pretty sure that Gideon made a bit of a boo-boo while talking about the emblems; I think he said that the unleavened bread is appropriate for symbolizing Christ's body, which is "sinful and pure", whereas he was supposed to say "sinless and pure".) Gideon eventually turned to the issue of what we can do to please God, first addressing those who aren't baptised Witnesses (Bible study!!) and then those who are at that point. The talk ended with an announcement that was eventually drafted by folks back at HQ, basically thanking us all for being there and inviting us to consider a home Bible study.
(If you go here and scroll down to geevee's post, you can see an old outline for the 2003 memorial talk; looking it over, that's essentially the same talk that Gideon delivered.)
During the talk, it came time for the passing of the emblems. Since the seating area of the Kingdom Hall has three sections of seats with two aisles, four JWs (including Uriah and Shem) walked from the front to the back, passing the emblems much as some churches might do the offering plate. First came the plate of unleavened bread, which was passed from hand to hand from the aisle to the edge of the section and then back. Second came the clear glass of red wine. No one partook--after all, as Gideon noted in his talk, as of last year fewer than 0.05% of attendees at these memorial services are of the 144,000. I may not be an insider, so perhaps its unfair for me to pass this judgment, but I know that the spiritual significance struck me as significantly less than in churches in which people actually partake of the eucharist.
The service finally concluded with a last song and a closing prayer. The final song was #105 from the songbook, "Hail God's Firstborn" (lyrics here). There were a few places in which I had to simply keep silent, such as the reference in the first verse to Jesus being created ("Let's hail Jehovah's firstborn, / God's heir he has been made, / who since he was created, / his Father's voice obeyed").
After the service ended, we got greeted by a number of other folks, but mostly got to talking to Atarah... who turned out to be Uriah's wife! Better yet, she and my mother grew up together. mother hadn't recognized her, but Atarah recognized my mother immediately, so they got to talking for a while, and Atarah jokingly offered me the dirt on my mom for a fee. And then another JW came up to my mother and said she recognized her, too--from K-Mart, where she hasn't worked in 18 years! Meanwhile, Uriah and I got to chatting about how there must've been something weird in the water where they grew up. It was a fun, long conversation. Uriah got a laugh out of me on a few occasions:
One of the first people we ran into was Mephibosheth, whom I hadn't seen in ages. After some brief chit-chat, I spied Shem about halfway across the room, but before we could get there, we ran into a few more JWs who wanted to welcome us, and then Uriah caught up. After a minute or so of conversation, in which he promised to forward me an video clip he'd mentioned receiving from the JW whom we'd just met.
Anyway, the two of us sat by the wall, about 2/3 of the way back. A woman in the row in front of us (let's call her "Atarah"; she'll resurface in the narrative) passed us a large copy of Sing Praises to Jehovah, while a woman in our own row passed over a New World Translation; I'd forgotten mine at home because I hadn't thought I'd need it.
The service began with, after an introductory prayer, a song: #87 in the songbook, "The Lord's Evening Meal" (lyrics here). Then began the beginning of the "talk" (which is the term preferred by JWs to "sermon" or "message"), delivered by a Witness whom I'll call "Gideon". It was, at least at first, rather unobjectionable. Gideon began by hearkening back to the original Passover, and between this and the language in the song, one couldn't possibly forget how Quartodeciman the JWs are. The talk proceeded to raise the question of why Christ had to die, and thus went back to the story of Adam and the Fall in order to set the stage for Christ's death. Eventually, however, Gideon got to the issue of the 144,000. It was interesting to see the rather loose pastiche of Scripture texts that got connected to 'show' the distinction between the elite class--Gideon remarked that one could expect them to be extremely devout followers of Christ, and said that they knew who they were based on the testimony of holy spirit--and the rest of us there. Thus, he explained that the new covenant is solely for those 144,000 who have the "heavenly hope", although Jehovah likewise loves all those who have the "earthly hope". The emblems, however, are exclusively for the anointed class. (And I'm pretty sure that Gideon made a bit of a boo-boo while talking about the emblems; I think he said that the unleavened bread is appropriate for symbolizing Christ's body, which is "sinful and pure", whereas he was supposed to say "sinless and pure".) Gideon eventually turned to the issue of what we can do to please God, first addressing those who aren't baptised Witnesses (Bible study!!) and then those who are at that point. The talk ended with an announcement that was eventually drafted by folks back at HQ, basically thanking us all for being there and inviting us to consider a home Bible study.
(If you go here and scroll down to geevee's post, you can see an old outline for the 2003 memorial talk; looking it over, that's essentially the same talk that Gideon delivered.)
During the talk, it came time for the passing of the emblems. Since the seating area of the Kingdom Hall has three sections of seats with two aisles, four JWs (including Uriah and Shem) walked from the front to the back, passing the emblems much as some churches might do the offering plate. First came the plate of unleavened bread, which was passed from hand to hand from the aisle to the edge of the section and then back. Second came the clear glass of red wine. No one partook--after all, as Gideon noted in his talk, as of last year fewer than 0.05% of attendees at these memorial services are of the 144,000. I may not be an insider, so perhaps its unfair for me to pass this judgment, but I know that the spiritual significance struck me as significantly less than in churches in which people actually partake of the eucharist.
The service finally concluded with a last song and a closing prayer. The final song was #105 from the songbook, "Hail God's Firstborn" (lyrics here). There were a few places in which I had to simply keep silent, such as the reference in the first verse to Jesus being created ("Let's hail Jehovah's firstborn, / God's heir he has been made, / who since he was created, / his Father's voice obeyed").
After the service ended, we got greeted by a number of other folks, but mostly got to talking to Atarah... who turned out to be Uriah's wife! Better yet, she and my mother grew up together. mother hadn't recognized her, but Atarah recognized my mother immediately, so they got to talking for a while, and Atarah jokingly offered me the dirt on my mom for a fee. And then another JW came up to my mother and said she recognized her, too--from K-Mart, where she hasn't worked in 18 years! Meanwhile, Uriah and I got to chatting about how there must've been something weird in the water where they grew up. It was a fun, long conversation. Uriah got a laugh out of me on a few occasions:
- He figured 13 years ago, when he became a JW, that there'd be at most 18 years 'til the end of the world... because by that time, those dratted teenagers with the funny clothes would be old enough to be in charge of things.
- He doesn't like to think about his family history, because "if you go back a few generations they're Mennonites, and that's just embarassing".
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
Posts
